MacG's interview with Helen Zille sparked heated debate on colonialism and South African politics

The controversial episode of Podcast and Chill has sent ripples through South Africa's political landscape, after host Macgyver 'MacG' Mukwevho sat down with Helen Zille, former Western Cape premier and the Democratic Alliance's Federal Council chairperson.

While the episode, streamed on December 26, initially seemed like a typical political interview, the conversation quickly veered into provocative territory, touching on sensitive issues like colonialism, race, and land ownership which ignited an intense debate among listeners.

Zille, known for her often contentious views, was asked by MacG about the Ngonyama Trust and its implications for land rights in South Africa, particularly regarding the Zulu monarchy’s influence over vast tracts of land.

The question set the stage for a heated exchange that would go viral on social media.

MacG, known for his bold questioning style, asked Zille directly, "What is your stance on the Ngonyama Trust and does the DA intend to modify land ownership rights associated with the Zulu monarchy?"

Zille’s response was blunt and unapologetic. She argued that land should not be valued for its sentimental significance, but rather for its capacity to produce food and jobs.

“My position on land is very simple,” Zille said.

“Land may have some kind of sentimental value, but its value to society is if it is producing food and jobs.”

She said that much of the fertile land in KwaZulu-Natal, which falls under the control of the Ngonyama Trust, was underutilised.

"Some of the most fertile land of South Africa is doing neither [producing food or jobs]," Zille said, referencing the land that could be used for economic benefit but is instead occupied for housing by individuals with the favour of local chiefs.

The conversation took another turn when MacG raised a popular conspiracy theory regarding the power dynamics in South Africa, particularly the influence of Stellenbosch, a wealthy area linked to business elites.

“According to you, who really runs the country? Because this conspiracy theory is like, the president is just a puppet, this Stellenbosch runs the country,” MacG inquired.

Zille, however, firmly distanced herself from such theories, though she acknowledged that the state’s institutions hold significant power.

"I mean, the institutions of this country do run the country. They are often very incompetent and very useless. Some are good. Some are good. I don't want to damn them all," she explained.

She also pointed to the role of the private sector in filling the gaps left by government inefficiencies.

"There are many institutions in the private sector that are good. And thank goodness there are so many private sector institutions that can keep delivering services that the government is failing to do," Zille said.

The former premier briefly touched on the notion of a "deep state", the idea of a shadowy, entrenched bureaucracy that operates independently of political leadership.

Zille acknowledged the existence of such a structure but made it clear that she did not believe in a secret cabal controlling the country from the shadows.

“There is something that they call the deep state, which is the way the state does things forever and ever, no matter who comes into power,” she said.

As expected, the interview quickly became a topic of intense debate on social media.

While many listeners were captivated by the exchange, some criticised MacG for not pressing harder on the answers he was receiving.

One X (formerly Twitter) user, @Azania_magwala, expressed their frustration, writing, "After this interview, I can say MacG is dumb as f***. How do you let a colonizer tell you, you're not from Africa when you are Black? Worse, the 'Khoi and San' are Black people too, but it's a thing for white people to conveniently not mention their race. That's actually RACIST."

Others, such as @TheNameIsANDY, offered constructive criticism, saying, "Great interview, but MacG should have been better prepared when it comes to wording his questions and having his 'facts' straight. You can't just say 'they own everything' and not be specific on what everything is. Especially with the kind of guest he's interviewing."

Similarly, @GeofChauke30 criticized MacG’s lack of preparedness, calling it "shockingly" poor.

However, MacG did have his defenders. @ironfist_ent_za pointed out that MacG is not a political analyst, stating, "You can't expect high-flown in-depth analysis from him where deep research-laden topics are being discussed. He does not host a current affairs show. His platform is supposed to humanize the personalities that participate."

Another supporter, @UMntuNgabantu, agreed, saying, “MacG isn’t an activist or politically informed—he has admitted that many times. His show isn’t about grilling people, but to bring them so they can chat.”

IOL